PVLF 2025

Interview with Rajesh Talwar, Author of “Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge - The Past, Present, and Future of Excellence in Education”

Rajesh's book explores Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge, comparing them to Asian institutions, and advocates for EdTech and reforms to elevate India's educational standards.
on Jul 30, 2024

Frontlist: What inspired you to write “Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge: The Past, Present, and Future of Excellence in Education”? Was there a particular moment or experience that sparked the idea for this book?

Rajesh: Let me make it clear at the outset that I am not an expert on education as such. As a matter of fact, I was going out of my comfort area while writing this book. Let me also provide some background to better explain my motivations in writing this book. As a student I wished, like many other Indian students to study at a top university in the West. The opportunity came eventually, but only after several years of practicing law. It was as a mature student that I went to study at the University of Nottingham on a British Chevening scholarship. Before I went to Nottingham, I had not only studied at Hindu College and Campus Law Centre at the University of Delhi, I also had teaching experience. While practicing law, I simultaneously taught LL B students for three years at Law Center 2, Dhaula Kuan, Delhi University, and later, I taught at the Faculty of Law at Jamia Millia Islamia, also for three years. So, you see, when I went to Nottingham, I was already in a position to compare, contrast, and reflect. Not only that, I could compare the University of Nottingham with Delhi University from a student’s perspective as well as a teacher’s perspective.

Years later, after I joined the United Nations, I had an opportunity to study at Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge. I was now in a position to compare these universities with each other as well as with universities in India and Asia. As a writer, I am habituated to keep notes in a journal about my visits to various places, and I did this with Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge. In the case of Nottingham, I had already fictionalized my experiences there in one of my early novels titled ‘Inglistan.’ Now I had all of this rich material and one day; it occurred to me that there was another book lying hidden there, an important book at that. I cannot say that there was a precise moment as such; the idea had been brewing in my mind for many years.

Frontlist: Can you elaborate on the criteria you used to compare and contrast the educational standards at Harvard, Oxford, and Cambridge with those in other parts of the world, particularly in Asia?

Rajesh: The comparisons are culled from my experiences at these elite institutions as compared to institutions in Asia which is the rising continent. I didn’t want the book to be written in dull, academic prose, and therefore, it has been written in an informal, almost chatty style, despite the seriousness of the subject matter. With respect to India, for instance, it is clear enough that there simply isn’t sufficient high-quality research being carried out, particularly in the sciences. The second thing is that we have some excellent universities but not a sufficient number of them. Our excellent universities such as the IITs and IIMs are expanding but we need to take care that such expansion does not come at the cost of quality. In the UK, there is greater quality control over institutions. This ensures that even universities that are not ranked very highly within a country are also not so much below the best institutions. This is sadly lacking in India and in many other Asian countries.

Regarding comparisons within Asia, China is making huge progress in its scientific studies. They have introduced collaboration with universities in the West and this has even, in a couple of instances, garnered Nobel Prizes. Notwithstanding this, as I write in my book, we in India have a huge advantage over China within Asia because we are, relatively speaking, a far freer society. In China, you cannot teach political science because you have to insist that the best political system in the world is the communist system and all others are inferior. In China, you cannot teach history because history begins and ends with the communist party. Everything that came before is feudal and bourgeois. For similar reasons, you cannot teach theology or philosophy in China. And so on and forth.

Frontlist: You discuss the concept of the four Es—expansion, equity, employability, and excellence—in the context of the Indian educational system. Could you explain how each of these elements is critical to educational reform in India?

Rajesh: Compared to how the situation was at the time of our independence there has been phenomenal expansion, but quality has unfortunately not kept apace. On expansion as I’ve already mentioned its good to expand institutions that are already acknowledged to be excellent such as the IITs, the IIMs and so on and forth but at the same time, the expansion must not be at such a pace that it compromises quality.

Now, equity is hugely important in a country such as India, with rampant inequality and huge income disparities. I speak in my book on how EdTech can bridge the gap between so-called elite institutions and other, say, less prestigious institutions if employed strategically. EdTech can also reduce the gap in quality between private schools and government schools. The government and private EdTech companies must cooperate with each other. The CEOs of these companies are often heard complaining that the government is not providing them with sufficient encouragement and incentives. Indeed, I do believe that they could be charged a reduced GST rate or given land at cheaper rates. In exchange for this, the government could ask them to provide subsidized or free EdTech assistance to government schools, schools run by charities, and so on and forth.

Employability is something that lies at the heart of any system of higher education. We need proper manpower planning in this regard. There is no point in having thousands of qualified engineers if those engineers cannot find jobs. On the other hand, it is unfortunate that we have thousands of students going to Ukraine or Russia to study medicine because we don’t have enough institutions imparting medical education in our own country.

For excellence, we need to improve the quality of our teachers. For instance, at the primary and secondary school level, we need to recruit better teachers. Currently, anyone can enroll for a Bachelors in Education, easily pass the examination and be qualified to teach. We must introduce criteria that tests the teacher’s ability to teach. Teaching should be a passion, not a mere job. Having said that we must provide good salaries and incentives to those teachers.

Frontlist: Your book highlights the potential of EdTech and AI to transform education. Can you share specific examples of how these technologies could be implemented to achieve full literacy and improve educational outcomes in India?

Rajesh: Let me give you a simple example. A few years ago, I was on a trip to China. I was using an App on my phone that would translate spoken English within a few seconds into Mandarin. I have a friend in the UK who is a professor teaching management at one of the country’s top universities. Now, when he is engaging with German and Spanish clients, he uses a Microsoft Word App that simultaneously translates his English. So there is a script in German or Spanish running at the bottom of the computer screen for his client. One of the problems we faced in India was the multiplicity of languages. If you think about it, this could actually be a strength. Moreover, now we have the possibility through EdTech to deliver a lecture in English at a top university or school as the case may be and have the same lecture translated within minutes if not seconds into Telegu, Tamil, Bengali and so on. The reverse of this should also be possible if you have an excellent educator speaking in Malayalam. Do you see how we can harness this technology to bridge the gap between education given in so-called elite schools and government schools? For more such examples, you will have to read my book, I’m afraid, otherwise this interview will be too long.

Frontlist: How do you envision the integration of technology reshaping the traditional classroom experience, particularly in developing countries?

Rajesh: I believe that we are going to have a hybrid model for the foreseeable future. It is another matter that the ratio between real and virtual which is currently skewed in favour of real time education may change in favour of virtual. So, for instance, if actual education on campus is 70 percent and virtual is only 30 percent, in time to come, virtual education could become 70 percent and education on campus become 30 percent. The upside of the virtual classroom is that you can have a brilliant lecture delivered by an outstanding professor that is beamed simultaneously to tens of thousands of students. The downside is that you lose out on interaction with classmates and professors. For school children in India and other developing countries where there is often a paucity of printed instruction material and the quality of teaching is not of a sufficiently high standard, EdTech can be a game changer. We have to take care, however, of medical issues that may arise if students spend too much time gazing at a screen, be it the computer screen or the mobile phone screen.

Frontlist: You advocate for India to attract more foreign students and allow foreign universities to set up campuses within the country. What benefits do you see arising from this approach, and what challenges might it present?

Rajesh: The potential of Indian students is second to none. This is evident when you see the success of Indian students who travel to the West for higher education. We have no reason to fear that the arrival of foreign universities will suppress our own indigenous institutions. Rather they will be encouraged to compete, there can be exchanges and collaboration and there may be a consequent flowering. The institutions that will face challenges will be those set up by businessmen who are only interested in making money. It is true that some of those institutions may be forced to shut down, but that will be all for the good.

Frontlist: Your book explores the paradox of why so many Indians excel in global executive roles despite the country's infrastructural challenges. What insights or explanations do you offer for this phenomenon?

Rajesh: Let me throw a couple of ideas at you which are also discussed in the book. You know when the British were ruling us, they were immensely surprised to find certain Indians with elephantine memories, particularly in the southern part of the country. They were perplexed and even took a few of these gentlemen to Cambridge to see what their own professors made of them. Now, we have had a great tradition in this country of oral learning that has gone on for centuries, and this may have impacted the Indian mind in some way. There may be a link between this and the ability of Indians to be excellent coders and writers of software. The other thing is that is my belief that Indians are among the most foolish people on the planet but also the most intelligent. In other words, from the sublime to the ridiculous, our range is phenomenal. Such is this little bit of ‘extra’ intelligence that this subcontinent has been gifted with that despite all the disadvantages here in terms of education at the primary school level, the lack of infrastructure, adequate research facilities and libraries, there are young men who go overseas, secure qualifications and can not only compete successfully with other candidates but even get the top position in some of the best companies in the world.

Frontlist: You predict that Asia will become the epicenter of global educational excellence in the coming decades. What factors do you believe will drive this shift, and how can Asian countries, including India, prepare for this transformation?

Rajesh: A recent IMF report speaks of how Asia is driving world economic growth. European economies are in a slump. Economic power is shifting to Asia and this is likely to remain a trend in the coming years. As the strategic affairs thinker Kishore Mahbubani points out in one of his talks, such a development should not by itself surprise us, for this was the norm for centuries, and it is actually Western ascendance that can be looked upon as an aberration. When more and more wealth and jobs will start to be created in Asia, higher education too will start to flower. India was once the leader in Asia; Asia was the richest continent in the world, so you could say that, in a way, in terms of education, India was the leading power in the world. This can happen again if our government gives education the priority it deserves. Unfortunately, as Princeton professor Dr Ashoka Mody points out in his book ‘India is Broken’ successive governments since the time of Nehru (and including him, by the way) have neglected education, especially primary education. This is irrespective of which political party was in power. All are equally culpable.

Frontlist: Can you delve into some of the unorthodox and out-of-the-box suggestions you make for improving the quality of education in India? Which of these recommendations do you believe could be most impactful in the short term?

Rajesh: If we improve the quality of education in the country, that will automatically have a great and positive influence on the higher education sector. If we manage to create one hundred percent literacy in the country that too will have an enormous impact on higher education. Not only is hundred percent literacy in India technically possible because of AI and EdTech but there are many models to choose from for attaining such a worthy goal. What is needed is willpower and determination. Other things? We need to shift our focus from an instruction model to a more participative seminar model. This will enhance critical thinking both among students as well as teachers. Our teachers must be asked to keep up to date with developments in their field, and publish some minimum quality research from time to time.

Frontlist: What impact do you hope your book will have on the discourse around educational reform in India and globally? What changes or actions would you like to see as a result of your work?

Rajesh: I think my book is somewhat unique, and unlike many if not most books written on education, it is highly readable, even if I say so myself. This is the reason why it has garnered so many reviews and attention. I am hoping that policy makers in the country will be positively influenced by the very many suggestions that have been made in the book. Our government must prioritize education. This means, for one thing, putting someone in charge at the ministerial level with relevant experience and more than that someone who is a doer, a man or woman of action. Such a person or persons can do for education what Mr Nitin Gadkari has been doing for roads in the country.

An important related issue is that of investment. Way back in 1966 the Kothari Commission had recommended that the Indian government invest at least 6 percent of the GDP in the education sector. Unfortunately, that never happened. When Mr Modi came to power in 2014, he had promised to give priority to the education sector. According to a recent World Bank report we are now investing 4.5 of GDP. That is an improvement but it still falls far short of what is needed. In comparison, Brazil invests 6 percent, South Africa invests 6.6 percent. We need to up our game if we wish to be a superpower in education and even generally, for prowess in education lies at the heart of prowess in many other fields.